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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:44 pm 
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After this post :
Bill Peters wrote:
David Billieres wrote:
The french campaign ! perharps the better figthed by Napoleon...

Bill do you plan some changes on the game engine ? like the defunt talonsoft counter charges, or another surprise ?


Good question for Rich Hamilton/John Tiller. I add in what ideas I can and the counter charge rule is NOT high on my own personal list of wants and needs for the game engine.

My desires run more like this:

Artillery Low/No Ammo optional rule - similar to the infantry format. In order to be resupplied they would have to recover one level at a time via the same procedure that is used for recovering from Disorder. This would stop the nonsense we have of batteries firing all game long. There would be a percentage added into the PDT file for both low ammo and resupply (two separate values). The existing supply wagons would not be used in the resupply process.

Artillery Capture Rule - similar to ACW series.

Artillery Spiking Rule - ditto

Night Movement Rule - movement at night is subject to Disorder for units in column. Similar to the Panzer series rule. Based on morale.

Surrender rule - a unit that is "No Ammo" AND Isolated would surrender based on a morale check. Thus militia would not hold out to the end. Any unit that is Isolated would be marked with the usual Isolated status but each turn the number would increment. Each turn a Surrender check would be performed. Skirmishers should not be able to Isolate a unit. The more turns isolated the more chance of surrender. Units in Chateau hexes would have a +3 morale bonus added to their roll or be exempt from the roll (though they did surrender on occasion).

Squares ZOC rule - squares should not have ZOCs. Cavalry "swirled" around them all the time. It occupies it's hex and that is it. This would also stop folks (like me) of going into square to hold down a front. It was a very confining formation and no offensive projection of the unit's men could stop others from moving by it.

Square break rule - in the 1814 campaign the Empress Dragoons broke no less than 3 squares in one charge. These were squares - not units that Disordered trying to form square. Rule: in cavalry vs. infantry in square battles the square can be broken on a 1 percent chance and the cavalry will then get the charge bonus. That is about the number of squares that were broken in the wars. And with such a low number not many folks are going to try and break a square. But it could be done.

Artillery Fire Range Highlighted - Toolbar button or menu item - would be nice to be able to see at a glance the artillery range for any battery in the game.

Ships - similar to the ACW, EAW and M&P series. Long overdue.

And I will not argue or defend these ideas. If you have a better idea send it to Rich H./John Tiller. These are my own personal list of wants and desires.

If I went with an Auto Square or Counter Charge rule I also would stop playing the "anything goes" crowd in this club permanently as I know how the games basically would be run. Really dumb moves would happen to try and trigger the events. But I am more or less moving away from those style of players anyway so perhaps after I see my higher priority items added in these two could be added too. But frankly I have two more games to do for the series and then that's it for me. Off to do something different.


I want to know the ameliorations or changes the players want...

Some ideas :
-different movements Heavy-light cav
-bonus move for elite troops (bonus for changing formations, or better movement) to represent more cohesion and training.
-possibility to light cav to go skirmishers with no melee but little harrasement fire...
-different VP by type of unit


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:07 pm 
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David - at one point in time we had a choice: finish up the Napoleonic series using the present engine or use the Musket and Pike game series engine.

I voted to continue using the Nap series engine and I believe so did Rich Hamilton. Rich White would have liked to move over to the newer engine.

My feeling was that by moving over to the M&P engine, where we could incorporate such things as MP rate by individual unit, VPs by individual unit and so on that I would not be able to reuse older OB data easily. Nor would we have continuity for the series.

Could we put out more games after we do up the Nap series using the newer engine? Not sure if John is up for that. Rather than go that route I would prefer a newer engine that has other features along with what you are asking for.

But that is my two cents on this topic.

I believe that M&P could accommodate the Nap battles just fine. If we didn't already have eight games out in the series I would say move on over and finish it up using M&P.

One thing you also have to take into account is that the M&P engine does not have all of the features of the Nap series engine. Thus:

1. Phase one would be to finish up the Nap series.

2. Phase two would be to bring a COPY of the M&P engine up to the same level as the Nap series.

3. Phase three would be to port over the various files from the Nap series to work with the new M&P engine (lets call it Nap Series 2).

4. Phase four would require a lot of work on the Scenario Designer's part: add in the missing values for ALL of the OB files and also PDT files as needed. The scenario data format also is different I am thinking.

Will we go that route? Hmm, I would rather explore other avenues myself. If John were to go that way he could offer up the projects to other folks that could take our work and perhaps upgrade the scenarios too.

I like the idea that we are only about four to five titles away from finishing up the series.

One thing I will say - for my own reasons I do NOT like the MP rates in the Ren game for cavaly. It is different than the Nap period of course but the light cavalry just zip all over the place. Super blitz is what I call it. No, they are not battle cavalry but they easily can pin down an infantry force trying to retreat while the heavies come up to attack (along with supporting infantry). Semi-historical but for our games the old "radio" format makes it too easy for the attacker to wipe out entire columns. That is unless there are tons of Pike units in the formations.

Question: what MP rate would you give Light Cav based on the present format for Leipzig/Austerlitz/Jena/1814? Presently cavalry has 21 MPs. How many additional MPs would you give Light Cavalry? Cossacks more? 24 MPs? 26?

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:24 am 
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Bill Peters wrote:

Question: what MP rate would you give Light Cav based on the present format for Leipzig/Austerlitz/Jena/1814? Presently cavalry has 21 MPs. How many additional MPs would you give Light Cavalry? Cossacks more? 24 MPs? 26?


Well based on 10min turns, 22 or 23... Not the intention to give the light the possibility to make super blitz !
And why not have a difference in the multiplicator bonus of charge ? (even if it have a melee bonus to heavy cav)
Or new formation for light cav : Skirmish with fire but no bonus charge, more movement...

like my idea for elite inf troops.. give them 1 point more or bonus +1 or +2 to change formation...

Nap serie are tactical game... so the difference between troops will be more pronounced... At final what's the difference between A troups and A+++ troups ? they have the same bonus.. Sure one have a chance to no rout... but after ?

the other important point for me are the melees.... it's to easy to make melee in these games...
Like the "charge button" and the morale calculation for cav, why not the same for infantry...

PS : Sorry for my bad english... it's not permitted me to exprim more clearly my ideas or suggestions :(


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:01 am 
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You make a VALID point for infantry melees. I truly would like to see where infantry charges and it would have to be straight forward.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:03 am 
You know, I had never really thought about that for infantry, but I also agree that is a very good point. :shock: :shock: :shock:


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:05 am 
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David,

It looks like a very interesting solution! Simple and elegant!

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Grenadiers de la Réserve
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Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Well, after two years, and my back on the JT games....

I continue to believe that certain aspects of the game are badly managed...
The mêlées (or the simulation of the very short-range firing) are really the weak point of the game...

I think that it is really necessary to limit the mêlées and to favor the fatigue of the enemy lines by the fire and to make of the mêlée the ultimate solution...

But my essential question: is that an evolution of the game is planned in the future?

It's not a critism.

But after several years with an engine of purring but imperfect game, is it not time to propose innovations more important than those already made?

I love the talonsoft series, love HPS games, and love JT, to permit us to play our favorite battles.... but I want see some changes ! :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:06 pm 
To be absolutely honest, David, I do not think JT has any interest in changes to the game engine.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Has anybody tried tweaking the PDT file for Strength Point? actually I believe it's at 25 men per strength point

Quote:
Stacking Parameters
Max Stacking: 1800 men Max Counters: 9 Strength Point: 25 men
Art Max Stacking: 14 guns Cav Max Stacking: 600 men
Skirmisher Fraction: 1/6 Squadron Fraction: 1/2

I would guess that if we add more men to the strength point it will reduce the effectiveness of the melee...

After that you may want to check if the fire power needs to be adjusted (higher) to compensate the loss of strength...

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3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
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"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:41 pm 
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I think the guys from the HISTORICITY & REALISM PROJECT toyed already around with that kind of approach but that was for Austerlitz.
I read thru an old thread and Bill Peters didn't seem too happy(politely expressed) about their approach.

Anyhow yes these games need a serious upgrade are a complete new engine, start point would be a separate value for training level because units can have a good moral but a bad training what simply leads to an average moral value on the battelfield and depending on the situation might not mirror the historical performance.

Also speed would be and interesting factor, to be able to switch into the second gear and "exhaust" a unit but to get it faster into a specific position would be interesting, the all time slow cavalry is a good example.

Last but not least a real multiplayer feature would be nice, with the player being able to assume a specific position and only command the units under his command but also to only see what the units under his command see, add to that a in game messenger feature that delays orders or may not even reach there destination and we have the real uncertainty that was so present in these days.

But I wonder what JT is up to, seeing all these "mobile" releases lately makes me worry that he also jumps onto the train of so many others that think there future lies in the hands of people that simply toy around some seconds between leaving a taxi and entering a bar or some kiddies using there new phones for something like that.
I still think that the really future lies in the hands of dedicated people and the dedication of the community could be well seen if they would finally get their hands on a full editor suite to make there own scenarios, the HISTORICITY & REALISM PROJECT guys already showed a lot passion but again the work to do all this without proper editors seemed to much to expand that to other games of the series.
Even in games as big as Leipzig with its many scenarios there are so many smaller engagements that are not covered and that surely will never be covered by JT scenario designers as those additional scenarios are just not worth the effort and so a dedicated user is needed. I see that clearly in the TOAW game series, without the many many user made scenarios that game series wouldn't have never made it past the year 200 and by now to its 4th incarnation. JT on the other hand is just still running because there are simply no alternatives and no competition, maybe HistWar gets them moving but I doubt as the 3D environment is too different from the hexes of the JT games so the will simply get along without forcing each other to a bigger effort lie it would be needed for a new engine or at least some bigger changes in the current engine.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:41 pm 
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ImageFirst off have you return Monsieur and second I am glade?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:29 am 
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Christian Hecht wrote:
I think the guys from the HISTORICITY & REALISM PROJECT toyed already around with that kind of approach but that was for Austerlitz.
I read thru an old thread and Bill Peters didn't seem too happy(politely expressed) about their approach.

Anyhow yes these games need a serious upgrade are a complete new engine, start point would be a separate value for training level because units can have a good moral but a bad training what simply leads to an average moral value on the battelfield and depending on the situation might not mirror the historical performance.


It's after reading the post of this guys, I remembered my initial post, and try to post the same question after two years...
Some of their work seems very intersting, other less
More I play more I see of ineptitudes
the troops in squares which create impenetrable fronts and which resist everything
- mêlées like crazy and which create grotesque situations
-the troops which continue to fight in spite of ratios raised in losses
while certain things (and who must be programmable) could improve this jeu. -
to remove zones of controls of squares (Bill Peters evoked it)
- do not authorize the mêlées in the troops in disorder not to authorize mêlées on in order troops (except cav)
-Create Infantery charges, like cav... (morale test, move forward...)
- limit piles, to avoid these fronts where divisions of 8000 men confine themselves on 4hexes and maybe heights of the other ideas!
I do not ask to change the graphics, the interface etc. I like my 2D view :) but to improve certain things for ameliorate the game, and create more historical situations....


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:12 am 
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Clifton. Bill has gone. That post David is quoting is 2 years old.

I really don't see any engine changes, sorry. I'm playtesting one game but that's also been dead in the water for nearly a year now.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:50 am 
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DO you young Guys know that this is a two year old post


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:57 am 
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clifton seeney wrote:
DO you young Guys know that this is a two year old post


I think everybody knows that this topic is not new... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx


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