Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I've noticed that the cavalry stacking and charge factor varies from title to title. This is something that gamers should be aware of, as it can have quite an impact on gameplay.

The Charge Factor:

In Waterloo and NRC it's x 3, which I believe was previously also the case for other titles.

In Eckmuhl, Wagram, Austerlitz, Jena & Leipzig and also 1814 it's now x 5

......................................................................

Cavalry Stacking:

In Waterloo and NRC it's 1/2 the stacking limit of infantry

In Jena it's 1/3

But for Eckmuhl, Leipzig and 1814 it's also 1/2

However it varies in Austerlitz between 1/2 and 1/3 depending on pdt

.....

This means that considering both the stacking limitation and the charge factor, cavalry are significantly stronger in Eckmuhl and Leipzig.

I'm not sure if there's any logical reason for these various differences.


Col. Rich White
Cavalry Division
II Corps Anglo-Allied Army

Different game designers and the fact that not all games have been updated recently is the main reason for the differences.

_________________
Field Marshal Sir Edward Blackburn, 1st Duke of Aberdeen K.G.
85th (Buck's Light Volunteers) Regiment of Foot
16th British Brigade
7th Division
III (Peninsular) Corps
2nd Battalion, Coldstream Regiment of Foot Guards

Actually, cavalry is significantly stronger in all of the titles in which it has a x5 Multiplier. The stacking restrictions are definitely secondary to the multiplier, as the attacks can still be distributed to make up for them. This is not the only difference in the titles. There are many including the Victory Points for Casualties and the manner in which units can be attacked in certain terrains. Also other non-play details such as the automatic deletion of the pbem.xxx and pbem.yyy files that can corrupt your game from time to time.

Consistency would be nice, but really does not exist at present. For now, you just have to know the mechanics of the title(s) you are playing, and be very careful not to confuse them.

FM Blackburn assures me that all titles will be updated to a consistent level by Christmas. Of course, he was not specific about the year, nor whether or not it would even be within our lifetimes. Even British Field Marshals may have their limitations it would seem (say it ain't so, Joe!).

{Don't worry, sir. I personally refuse to believe that. I know that British Field Marshals can do anything! Well, except pay their own bar tabs, that is.}

I am just ribbing Ed here. He has no control at all over these updates. That is something between the Game Designers themselves and John Tiller & Company. Like most all of the rest of us, there is nothing he can do about this either, except wish for it to happen.

Actually BG Jones, I thought you might code them from your new posting in Outer Mongolia. The winters will be long and cold and you will need something do besides swill your Yager...

_________________
Field Marshal Sir Edward Blackburn, 1st Duke of Aberdeen K.G.
85th (Buck's Light Volunteers) Regiment of Foot
16th British Brigade
7th Division
III (Peninsular) Corps
2nd Battalion, Coldstream Regiment of Foot Guards

Sorry, sir. I thought I was being supportive this time. I suppose I will have to just try harder, sir.

Besides, swilling Jager is what I do best, although I do admit to having a slight problem at the moment. I cannot seem to reach my shot glass as the venerable Marechal Bardon is all over me in our contest in Saxony. He seems to be attached, sir, and most reluctant to release his grip on my throat. Must have been something I said. You wouldn't happen to have a pry bar that I could borrow, would you, sir?

My crowbar is currently in use attempting to pry the same Marechal away from my own throat at Leipzig...

_________________
Field Marshal Sir Edward Blackburn, 1st Duke of Aberdeen K.G.
85th (Buck's Light Volunteers) Regiment of Foot
16th British Brigade
7th Division
III (Peninsular) Corps
2nd Battalion, Coldstream Regiment of Foot Guards

Very sorry to hear that, sir. He does seem to be a most persistent buggar. Perhaps I can force him to loosen his grip by impacting him on a nearby tree....repeatedly.

I suppose there is one consolation if you do indeed to transfer me to our listening post in the Far East, sir. That is that Marechal Bardon will be compelled to accompany, given the current state of affairs. I would consider that to be quite the advantage actually, as a Frenchman in Russia will undoubtedly freeze to death first.

Rich your post is good

I want to comment that what Bill has done in these later titles is much more realistic in my view and an improvement to the game.
In essence cavalry is under powered in Waterloo for the following reasons

The multiplier
The low vp cost of infantry
The high vp cost of cavalry
The stacking

In later titles cavalry has become much more realistically Napoleonic

This is achieved as Rich observes with the higher stacking, better multiplier and more balanced vp cost (3 points per 25 inf 5 per 25 cav).
The result of this is that you cannot simply advance infantry in the open anymore and get him your opponent to commit his cav so you can then get some good vp.

If you get caught in the open the cavalry will cut you up and the VP cost will be very bad. This in my view is realistic. There are many accounts of single sqd's of heavies putting pay btns of infantry. During the period it was pretty much essential to form square and this is much more the case in the games now.

I think the poor performance of cav in the early HPS games may well be a reflection of an ACW mentality. The Napoleonic period is a true combined arms period and cavalry shock was a key component. This had changed by ACW with cavarly filling very much a dragoon/light cavalry role.

Anyhow I am glad the new titles have this feature it's a big improvement but I would agree with Rich its important you are aware of it as it greatly changes you infantry tactics.

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

Helga, please offer a couple rounds to both Brigadier Jones and FM Blackburn, with my compliments.

Good points. With the VP's and charge multiplier- in Waterloo, infantry is bait to lure in enemy cav for destruction. Cavalry is so costly, that it is typically more expensive to launch the charge than be on the receiving end. That approach is sheer madness in Austerlitz and Leipzig. Not only is the VP exchange going to cost you, the charge multiplier results in higher infantry losses. On the whole, I prefer the way cav is handled in the newer titles, with one exception- frontal charges by cav against undisordered lines or guns.

One other part that all players should be aware of is the charge multiple. In the 10 minute turn battles, the multiple is 3, which gives less opportunity for penetration/successive melees compared to the 15 minute turns where the multiple is 4. Multiple is the # of melees a unit can conduct as well as determines the # of hexes that a unit can advance after a sucessful melee- a 3 means that after the first melee, a charging cav unit can advance 2 hexes if not entering a ZOC and/or conduct up to 2 more melees.

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Marechal Jeff Bardon
Duc de Castiglione et Prince de Wagram
Commandant de la Garde Imperiale

General Knox's comments are spot on. - it will be nice to see the older games modifed to the same standard as the last few releases so there is consistency in the games

My compliments to the fine Marechal for chasing the two senior allied officers to ground - I must admit Field Marshall Blackburn has taken my sword on a few occassions so it is hearting to hear a French office returning the favor

May your Eagles fly high over the field of Battle

Helga a round of drinks for my comrades in arms , ( and also for those poor allied officers feeling a little tense)

Thank you for the drink, Colonel.

It is only slightly short of amazing that I can sit my horse after all of the alcohol I ‘consume’ in this fine establishment. Heck, its amazing I can even find my horse really.

I don’t know about Marshal Blackburn’s situation, but as for me…I’m not dead yet.

Marechal Bardon is however vigorously riding all over the field, waving that infernal stick that your Emperor gave him, and shouting something very loudly in French in my specific direction. Now mind you, I don’t speak a word of the language myself, and there is really not much point to learn it now as the Empire of France will soon be eradicated from the maps of Europe, along with its feminine language no doubt, but as best I can translate, it seems to involve something to do with the crushing of insects.

I wonder what that could mean….

BTW, when I get really drunk I simply look at the color of my coat and stagger around until I can locate something similar. I usually end up in some British unit from which my faithful, Hanoverian lads have always been kind enough to retrieve me. The whole process was much easier when I wore a coat of Jager green, as the Russian Army was normally encamped many miles from ours, and I would invariably stumble upon my own men first. Still, there was the one time that I ended up in a French Cuirass...

_________________
Field Marshal Sir Edward Blackburn, 1st Duke of Aberdeen K.G.
85th (Buck's Light Volunteers) Regiment of Foot
16th British Brigade
7th Division
III (Peninsular) Corps
2nd Battalion, Coldstream Regiment of Foot Guards

Colin,

It's hard to agree with you. Well, of course change in pdt parameters did make cavalry more dangerous. But it was achieved by absolutely unhistorical means.

The hex frontage is set to be 100 m. At the very most, with all those officers and nco set in front and in the rear of squadrons and with all the intervals brought to zero, a "mounted wall mode", you can get into this frontage 150 men. Plus the same number of men in the second rank. Totally 300. It was Gustavus Adolphus who empirically proved that cavalry should not form more than three ranks deep. The others do not take part in melee and should be better used to extend the front or to form the reserve. Since the times of Frederick the Great this number was decreased to two lines. Actually only the first rank takes part in melee. But if there is a gap in the first line it significantly decreases efficiency of attack. Hence the second line is needed ONLY to fill in the gaps in the first rank. Stacking limitations since Austerlitz allow to stack up to 900 in a hex. It allows to use them all in melee. And attacking stack effective strength increases with increase of the numbers between 300 and 900 men. This is absolutely unnatural.

Unlike that we in H&R project preset that:
1. One can't stack more than 300 cavalrymen in a hex.
2. One can't stack more than 2 squadrons in a hex.
3. Heavies squadron is about 140-150 man strong, Dragoons - 120-130, lights 105-115, militia - 100, cossacks 85-10.
4. Fresh single heavy squadron may defeat a fresh single infantry batallion (set to be 400-450 man strong) both in line/column.

Then the parameters in pdt and oob files were fitted so that all the aforementioned requirements were satisfied. In particular charge factor became as big as 9! Actually that does not matter. What does matter is that fresh single heavy squadron may defeat a fresh single infantry batallion with a probability about 20-30%. That is absolutely historical. Take notice that all the fact when such a victory did take place was marked as a distinguished conduct of the cavalry. And while doing so loses of cavalry and infantry INCLUDING those from inf defensive fire ON THE AVERAGE are about equal in terms of VPs. We did make computational experiments with numerous and numerous melees. If your cavalry is not fresh (it charged at least once) such an outcome becomes very unprobable. But if you use two squadrons of any sort most probably you'd chop any unsquared batallion into small pieces.

This is historical. Improving realism in one place decreasing it in three other I can't call historical.

So... Join our cause! Only H&R! Only Hardcore!

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Anton I must admit it's quite clever what you guys have done in H&R (I just opened the hypothetical ulm scenario for another look)

Can I ask a couple of questions

Why is the fatigue there to begin with? Just to create caution? or perhaps make cavalry charges a one shot wonder?

I understand you have a -65% on melee is that right? How does that work again?
I like the cavalry multiplier that's excellent.

My main concerns would be

1. A rout fest due to low morale but I guess less melee's reduces this

2. How does a unit storm a position now? The issue of melee / column use is very contentious I know. If you look at Borodino though the infantry operated in columns and stormed back and forth all the time. What is your teams view on that? I am not criticising just interested in the debate your team no doubt had.

I realise bayonet wounds were less common but their is still a close quarters fire/melee effect in the period as we often see units storming positions. For example De Erlons masses drove onto the ridge of Mont St Jean. How could you achieve this in the games if you cannot melee? A slow attritional firefight?

What about storming a town such as the numerous examples of this throughout the period. If you rely on a linear firefight you will struggle. If a defender forms line in a town that would make him pretty invulnerable would it not?

Again not criticising just interested in how the thinking was developed.

3. I don't like the split btns caused by the limited stacking. By my calculations a French btn of 800 men in double company frontage column would occupy about 80 yards wide by 9 ranks deep would that not fit in a hex? I know you have some pretty scholarly types working on this maybe I am wrong.
Also I recall it was about 10 yards a gun in a deployed battery so 8 guns should fit in a hex? no?

I agree the representation of cavarly etc in the current games is not bang on historical but I just view as an abstract representation and its an improvement over the earlier versions of the game.

Helga red wine with Vodka chasers here!

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

After you comment I was re-reading the Waterloo Companion by Mark Adkin...

And on page 249 there is a diagram showing a Squadron (of a cuirassier regiment) deployed in line. The squadron is in 2 lines... and offer a front of 60m, the depth of the squadron is about 6 meters max for a squadron of 113 men.

Historical accounts show that it's possible to have more than 300 men charging in a square of 100m by 100m. The French were known for charging in "colonne serrée" formed by squadron.

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
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"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

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