Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I am working on a revised map for Dennewitz. It includes more routes that were missing from the original game map which we have been using since the game came in 2011. At first I just wanted to add in paths that would cut through the farmland but then while doing some searching on the internet for a period map of the battle I came across this image (see attached).

There were numerous roads that were missing as well so those got added into my revised version of the map. Some of the farmland was changed as well.

Now it makes a lot more sense and the Prussian 3rd and 4th Korps actually have a set of roads to use to support each other.

I would like someone to give me input on whether we should change that main road that goes from Juterbog to Dennewitz from a Road to a Pike. What say ye? It looks like a major road but I am loathe to upgrade it unless I hear from someone else on this matter.

But all in all I am really happy with how it looks. Dennewitz is one of my top 10 favorite battles from the game and really the entire series. I could fire it up and play it through a couple of times a year.

I still have about 70% of the map to revise but its coming along very well. Mainly the smaller paths to add in at this point. Will get into the next update but not this one.

The net result will be less plowing through the fields to try and take an alternate route from one place to another. I do think it will mainly help the Allies but there will be new routes that will help the French and their allies too.

_________________


Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Well in the current scenario the road from Jüterborg to Rohrbeck is a pike.
Now, on various maps I see a similar drawn road from Jüterborg to Rohrbeck but also to Dennewitz and Kaltenborn.

Here some examples:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _09_06.jpg
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/dennewitz_map.png
https://von-bastille-bis-waterloo.fando ... _VA_sc.jpg
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/von-b ... -prefix=de

Maybe they all should be pike?
At least they should be similar to the Jüterborg to Rohrbeck connection, what ever you make it.

_________________

In 1806-07, during the Autumn-Winter Campaign in Prussia and Poland, main communication route ran from Mainz (Mayence), Frankfurt, Magdeburg, Berlin and Kostrzyn (Oder), a total of 21 stages, 161 leagues. From 6 to 10 leauges per stage.

An equally important, similar route from Leipzig to Berlin ran through Duben, Wittenberg, Treuenbrietzen, Beelitz, and Potsdam.

So it bypasses the small Juterbog and the smaller Dennewitz. Is there a difference between 1806 and 1813?

If the first ones are pikes, the smaller ones here are the main roads.

And what does it look like in terms of mechanics, engine code, time traversing the map in time of battle?

_________________
Général de Brigade Cezary Pluskwa,
17ème Régiment de Dragons,
1ère Brigade,
4ème Division de Dragons,
3ème Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée.

Yes, I agree. Some more Pike routes are needed. The Juterbog-Dennewitz-board edge was added in last night. I also added in a lot of minor roads as well.

I want to share the copy of the map I am working on with you and Cezary so you can see what changes have been made.

Note: that last link didn't work for me. All I got was some sort of artwork image. Thanks for posting these maps links. I saved the map images to my folder and will pour over them tomorrow.

_________________


Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

I realize that I need to look over the Berlin Campaign map too and make some changes to it. I plan on working on the Dennewitz map first and then clear out a space for it on the bigger map and paste it in. Fortunately, I made sure that both maps share the same elevations so i wont have to adjust any of those.



Yes, you bring up some good questions. The pike routes will make for quicker traversing of the map. What effect will that have on the scenarios?

For that reason alone I plan on holding off on having Rich Hamilton add these revised map files into the 4.07 update and I am asking for volunteers to step forward who will test the Battle of Dennewitz with me. I know that the 3rd Korps march will be different and might even mirror the historical choices more meaning that the French IV Corps will not have free reign to pounce on the Prussian 4th Korps. Now the 3rd Korps will be better able to support them.

I am not sure why I didn't pick up on this more when I was reading George Nafziger's account of the battle. These maps I have found help me to know where the two northernmost brigades were located. They were attacking the French left flank but more to the north than how it turns out in our games. Once you see the map you will understand that now the Allied player will have a better chance of uniting the two corps earlier than we normally see.

But I agree, Cezary, that we need to keep the amount of pike routes down to just what was there. These older maps are not always reliable. I do think that the map that we have lacks several routes.

Another thing is: we tend to react to movements that are far from the troops we end up moving in reaction to the enemy's movement. I truly wish we had some sort of orders system. Especially if its a French, Russian or Swedish division or Prussian brigade out of command range of its Corps commander.

I am almost ready to start playing a House Rule that reads: unless your division commander is in command range of the corps commander you may not react to movements that are more than 30 hexes away from your position. For detached brigades: more like 15 hexes. We tend to do a lot of "Reaction Movement" in our play. I know I am guilty of it. In our Empire III miniature games you had orders and in order to get them changed your leadership had to get the orders passed down. For the French with Napoleon present it was not as hard as if you were the Allies of 1805. The Prussians, by this time, had a better staff system. In this battle we are talking about Ney in command. Its not Napoleon and Berthier plus that huge HQ that they had.

But anyway, tomorrow I will spend more time on the map and see if I cant get most of it done but I am not pushing it these days. So lets take this on as a project and if you and Christian want to help playtest it that is fine but if not then how about just giving some comment on the work?

Thanks for your input.

_________________


Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Yes only making the truly important connections that Cezary mentioned pike, and the other less ones as roads seems best.



I attached it.

_________________

Thanks for posting that map image.

Re: Pikes vs. Roads - That is one big reason why I am calling for a review of the map. Its become more involved and I do not want to just put it out there in an upcoming update without it being reviewed and tested. Cezary's comment about march rates got me thinking that I need to read up more on the battle and that part of the campaign again. Find out the times and march ranges, etc.

I just reordered the book "Napoleon at Dresden: The Battles of August 1813" by George Nafziger. Actually found it used in hard cover at a price I couldn't pass up ($15). I also just picked up (on Kindle) the book "Napoleon and Berlin, The Franco-Prussian War in North Germany, 1813" by Michael Leggiere. He had information that Nafziger did not include concerning the "scorched earth" policies that the Prussians carried out in that area of Germany.

For me and many others, we feel that the August and September battles were the ones that decided that campaign. By the time Napoleon and La Grande Armee are retreating on Leipzig the campaign was pretty much over. It was just a choice of whether to fight at Leipzig or to retreat to France. I still would like to build an OB for the 1814 game that includes more formations which were not destroyed in Germany. Would make the game more interesting for sure. The game has plenty of maps but I lament that the Western Brie Plateau map is on a damaged hard drive. Maybe some day I will be able to get the drive back up and running.

_________________


Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

I got the Top 50 Map Viewer program installed on the new PC that I have had since January and it worked without a hitch. Top 50 is a digital topo map program with each DVD set being for a state in Germany. I own the complete set.

On the older Dell PC I had errors trying to load the program after I had installed it. This time I installed it I also got it to come up in the correct view and since the menus are all in German that was a miracle in itself. Just long years of using it and a good memory perhaps. There are two sets of zoom in/zoom out buttons to make matters more complicated. That didn't take long to figure out.

I brought up the Brandenberg-Berlin DVD and checked on some things and noted that the Nuthe Canal on Leggiere's "The Nuthe-Notte Defense Zone" is labeled as Nuthegrabern. Checking the translation of "grabern" reveals that it means "dig" in english or "canal." So that much is correct but I noted that a stream leading to the large body of water called the "Rangesdorfersee" was missing so I added it in.

What I am going to do is merge the Dennewitz map into the large Berlin Campaign map and then for the battle use a sub map instead of the old hardcoded map. The old map file will remain so folks can finish their battles using the old version of the map. The .scn files that used the Dennewitz.map file will use a sub map instead. WDS prefers it that way and so do I. It means that you only have to update ONE map file and then the sub map feeds off of that master map.

But I got a real jolt seeing those Top 50 Maps load. On the older system I had issues getting it to work. At this point I am not using them to make maps so I do not have to try and figure out how to add in the Legend to the map to show scale of kilos. Its nice to be able to have this topo program available. I could use it to make maps for other game projects.

So next up is:

1. Determine the region of the Dennewitz map on the master map.

2. Delete all data in that region.

3. Paste in the updated Dennewitz map file.

4. Continue updating the master Berlin Campaign map.

5. Generate a Dennewitz sub map for the battle scenarios. Also may need to do that for the smaller scenarios too I am sure and update those .scn files to point to the new sub maps. I will have to do some checking on that ....


It is TRULY amazing that I still have these Top 50 DVDs when you consider that since 2014 I have moved many times since then and had to "jettison" a lot of my possessions. Scott Ludwig (Napoleonic), Mark Jones (WW2), John Corbin (large Emperor's Press book) and a good friend of mine (he got my ACW books) ended up with the bulk of my book collection. These days I prefer to own Kindle books. I used to own 42 boxes of books. Now I have two bookshelves (about 5 boxes) and over 100 Kindle books. Scott still gives me unrestricted access to the books he bought in case I need to check on something.

_________________


Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Bill,

I'm a bit light on games at the moment. I'd be available to play test if you are still looking for someone.

Dean

_________________
Général de Brigade Dean Webster
1ère Brigade
1ère Division
4ème Corps d'Armée
La Grande Armée

-------------------------------------------------------
"I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel"
Blackadder

Dean - you're on. I should finish up with the Dennewitz map this week. Figure next weekend or early next week we can kick off our playtest game.

_________________


Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Here are a couple of screenshots showing the progress I have made on the map. This first one is the area from Juterbog to Dennewitz and beyond to the west as seen in the current scenario in version 4.04 followed by a view of the map revision.



Revised version:



You can easily spot the new roads and pike routes but also note the new paths too. I cannot post the entire map as its just too big and the forum wont allow it.

There is a new road that leads from the deployment area of the Prussian 3rd Korps that they can use to go to the aid of the 4th Korps just like they did historically. No more will the French IV Corps be able to keep the two forces apart. The historical maps that Christian posted clearly show two Prussian brigades linked up with Tauentzien's 4th Korps. That will be how the battle can now unfold once this scenario is available for play.

I will be testing the scenario with Dean Webster very soon. I know he and I will be shooting games files back and forth until its over. We both enjoy playing this battle very much. He was my Battle of Messkirch opponent and I have always enjoyed playing him.

Both Christian and Cezary have an updated map and scenario file so they can look over the changes. I did a lot of new routes today and also cut back on the woods in the south-central part of the map.

I enjoyed doing this work very much. I am glad I am able to continue to contribute to the continuation of the process of making these games the best they can be.

_________________


Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

I am consulting with Christian on the need for buildings on the map. The maps I have done since the 1813-14 games came out all had buildings in the farmland area. I know that the Prussians did a scorched earth policy during the fall but I do not think they destroyed farm buildings (barns, etc) during this time. Still reading up a bit on it. Wont be adding any chateaux in case anyone was wondering.

_________________


Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

To be honest, I can't say much about the Prussians doing a scorched earth policy during the fall.

Scorched earth in 1813 is often mentioned in some theories, for example in case Napoleon would have established himself on the Vistula again, then the "Landsturm" was supposed to do guerrilla style warfare behind the French lines, obviously that would have also include burning anything of use the the French.

I guess we can say that by then even the Prussians had learned to take what was useful to their own troops, and that maybe in some cases things were indeed destroyed, but I doubt that this was done systematically like the Russians did in 1812.

_________________

Hi, few things I was reading in the book:

Marching units raised clouds of dust on the sandy roads. So, the gusty north-west wind drove and limited visibility, the effectiveness of fire and the control of troops on the battlefield, although it informed about the movement of the French Army that they began their march in the morning at 7:45h(IV Corps), 8:15h(VII Corps) and from 10:00h last XII Corps was ready and set off finally 13:00-14:00h to fight.

General Bulow's Corps set off from Eckmannsdorf at 10:30 and reached Niedergorsdorf two hours later, marching along sandy roads.

Due to the north wind, VII Corps heard no sounds of fighting as it advanced from the south.

Clouds of dust did not allow Marshal Ney to properly assess the situation at Gohlsdorf with Borstell's Division.

_________________
Général de Brigade Cezary Pluskwa,
17ème Régiment de Dragons,
1ère Brigade,
4ème Division de Dragons,
3ème Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée.

Very good, Cesary. Sounds like limited visibility is needed. How would 20 hexes sound?

I am loathe to mess around with the road movement rate. I will be making my own version of the 15 min. scenario using the older original EC/WC PDT file for that one so that roads have a dif. movement cost (read: more) than Pikes.

_________________


Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)