Colonial Campaigns Club (CCC)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Phil Natta</i>
Here's my thinking when I was looking at the Top Gun List. I was noting that a lot of names seemed to be very active members, not just in games, but in administration activities as well. So I'm going down the list seeing that the vast majority of listees get a double dose of points, and that those same guys are crowding the top 10 spots. Then I thought about Private Yankee Doodle and Regular John Bull who's only "income" was by combat. Those blokes were never going to make a dent in the top 10 because there's no way they could catch the guys earning two incomes. Didn't seem fair to those who don't earn admin points. On a different sort of list, such as a "CCC Top Twenty-Five Total Point Achievers" list, it would make perfect sense, but not on a Top Gun list. That's how the plot was hatched at least.
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I understand the intention.

But I think you are making an inadvertent massive logical error here.

We don't earn "two incomes". That would mean we get double points <b>for the same time invested</b>.

The hour has 60 minutes for everyone, and most people, unless retired, have only preciously few hours gaming time a day. Let's say it's two hours, for the sake of the example.

If "Private Yankee Doodle" uses his two hours gaming time for playing games, he will probably complete 6 to 8 turns and earn - well, you do the math, but something like 40 to 60 points a month, depending on how long the games are and whether he wins or loses them.

If Colonel Amos (Davis, Cox, Reuter, Walter) spends one of this two hours counting medals, updating websites, mothering recruits, he has only one more hour left for playing the game. He will accordingly complete only 3 or 4 turns, and earn only half the points for that. It is only fair that he earn some meager admin points per month for the other hours spent for the club.

That's no double income. Double income would be two sources of money for the same time. It's two half incomes instead of one full one, for the same amount of gaming time spent for the club.

So "Private Yankee Doodle" has just as good a chance of making the Top 10 as I have. In fact, considering that gaming points are earned with much less effort (I need only four or five hours gaming time to earn my entire monthly salary as AdC), he has probably a better one.

Ignoring admin points when comparing the total for the top gun list is not making opportunities unequal in our favor any more equal; it's making opportunities unequal in favor of "Private Yankee Doodle" even more unequal.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mike Cox</i>

Actually that hits it on the head. +1 for a victory of any stripe, 0 for a draw, -1 for a loss of any degree.

Of course it takes a volunteer....
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Mike it is not so much work as is looks. Only the first time will take some time. I can do it within this month if someone like to see such a list[:)]And I'm playing not less games while I'm doing this, Dierk. But in general I agree with Dierk. I think it is no good idea to split the points.

After reading Dierks latest post,

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The hour has 60 minutes for everyone, and most people, unless retired, have only preciously few hours gaming time a day. Let's say it's two hours, for the sake of the example.

If "Private Yankee Doodle" uses his two hours gaming time for playing games, he will probably complete 6 to 8 turns and earn - well, you do the math, but something like 40 to 60 points a month, depending on how long the games are and whether he wins or loses them.

If Colonel Amos (Davis, Cox, Reuter, Walter) spends one of this two hours counting medals, updating websites, mothering recruits, he has only one more hour left for playing the game. He will accordingly complete only 3 or 4 turns, and earn only half the points for that. It is only fair that he earn some meager admin points per month for the other hours spent for the club.

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I can see his point.

There is more work that needs to be done on this whole concept and this has been an EXCELLENT debate. Thanks for all the comments/suggestions and insight from both sides of the issue.

I think the concept of tallying club points for a top gun list, regardless of their source, is a little besides the point anyway.

Points are merely a measure of time invested, and not only time per day, but also total time, i.e., a measure not only of activity, but also of length of club membership. Whatever happens, someone who has joined in 2001, as I have, can never expect to reach the same level as someone who has joined in 1999. That has nothing to do with "top gun" either way.

I am all for having a top gun list based on win-loss ratio, and like Stefan I am perfectly willing to help Scott with it. That will be a true measure of generalship (and I expect to figure quite low on it [:(]).

Since the wars we fight were of several years and each year had only a few months in each campaign season, why not set up the TOp Gun list so it is only for 4 months.

After each 'Season' all games completed during that time is tallied for win/loss and then we cna see who is the TOP GUN for that particular period.

Each player will have different times of the year when they can be active so the list should change frequently.

Our seasons could be:

Summer: may - aug
Fall: sept - dec
Winter: jan - apr

That would give players a whole four months to be considered one of the best and give others four months to knock them off of the list.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Al Amos</i>
<br />Since the wars we fight were of several years and each year had only a few months in each campaign season, why not set up the TOp Gun list so it is only for 4 months.

After each 'Season' all games completed during that time is tallied for win/loss and then we cna see who is the TOP GUN for that particular period.

Each player will have different times of the year when they can be active so the list should change frequently.

Our seasons could be:

Summer: may - aug
Fall: sept - dec
Winter: jan - apr

That would give players a whole four months to be considered one of the best and give others four months to knock them off of the list.
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No discussion without Al[:D] Al, I think you go the 'german' way... make it much to complicated. This will make the record-keeping to a full-time-job. O.k. the person will get Admin-points but these ... will not helping him to climb the Top-Gun-Ladder[8D] Overall I have not the feeling that these list is SO IMPORTANT as it sounds here.

And we could specialize and get out of each other's way ... I could make a bargain with Al, he promises to be a winter-top gun only, and I be a summer-top gun only, and Stefan can get the fall. [:D]

WoW! Did the "tea tax" cause this much commotion? [:I] Can I put my 6pence in? [:I]

The original "spirit" of the Top gun (top 10) (Top whatever) list was to provide a friendly "jab in the ribs" and another avenue for banter. I was there when it first started [}:)] and no thought was given to it being the "bellwether" of accomplishment of any kind ... just another way to have fun with one another (I wish A.R. was here .. he'd remember). It's first appearance was as part of my personal Brigade Page and one had to go there to see it. It got linked from or put on other's pages only because the "ball got to rolling". And, btw, it was not brought before, sanctioned or approved by the cabinet as it was not originally intended to be an "official" list of any kind.

Over time others relieved me of the maintenance of this list, but this is the first I have heard of it taking on a life as an official club entity.

I remind us all of this in the spirit of friendship ... lest we forget the original intention of the list.

(bodies laying strewn all over the Taven and ...) MORGAN DIVES IN!!!
BOOM, SPLAT, CRACK, SMASH!!!
Brawl time again!
Ok - does anyone remember who the REAL LEADER OF THE NWC was at one time? Hmm, anyone remember those days of the top guns of the NWC?
The so called real leader made sure he stayed at the top of the list and was promoting himself as such!
Now for me I never really cared much about who the REAL LEADER was to begin with. I have alot of points in our clubs that are gone for good - they were never recorded and I am not going to keep track of them or bother my superiors about them. I did that in the ACW and felt kind of ridiculous and just figured if the CO didnt catch it then it wasnt going to cause me to open an inquest.
To be honest, I didnt know this CCC Top Guns list existed and had I known it existed and had seen it no matter how little or how much I have contributed to the club it wouldnt have meant much to me to be honest. I dont care if I am the Top Dog or the Low Man on the Totem Pole.
Who really cares how many points you get for a game, admin duties, etc? I know I am in the club to have fun. The list was meant as Phil phrased it in his original message and as a Admin guy in the club (being that I lead a Dept.) I saw EXACTLY what he was trying to get across. I felt that no further explanation was needed.
Look - we have medals for guys that do Admin work or contribute to our club. Isnt that enough? Why promote a fight about Admin points on the Top Gun, Top Musket, Top Bayonet or whatever list? We know who makes the club run and frankly anyone that hasnt helped run a club is missing out on alot of fun at times. Not everyone can do a webpage but we all can help with email paperwork and so on. Folks spend money out of their own pockets for websites and so on. We know who the real heros are in the club anyway. Why beat the issue to death?
Fighting? Sure, in games. I dont see a cause here. If tea had been taxed or stamps perhaps a bit of a brawl would have been ok but is the fact that we are not as HIGH on the list as important as how HIGHLY we value guys like Dierk or Al? NO! To be considered by our peers to be valuable is more important than some list, Cabinet sanctioned or not.
The reaction from Dierk and Al if I didnt know them well almost sounds like they were point seekers in themselves which I know that they are not.
Should Phil and Ernie and co. have to figure out who is Top Gun every 4, 6, 8 months? I dont care frankly. If it slows down Ernie's file exchanges in our Camden game I say - TOSS THE LIST OUT THE WINDOW!
Lets fight for a cause that is worth fighting for. Al and Dierk, you guys are important members and we all value your contribution. I understand how you could be upset but frankly lets fight over something that is more worthy of our time.
Like Phil's wig!!! Hehe! (Morgan tosses it to Dierk as Phil gropes blindly in the pack for it) "Lets play keep-away!! Pass it on to Al, oh-oh, Ernie got it!! Oh well it was fun while it lasted!"
I understand the issue - we heard it for months in the NWC! As I remember the list stuck around for awhile until a certain member left. Then it migrated to become ... the Master of Europe! And by the way none of us takes the tourny too seriously either. Its purpose is for those that are INTERESTED to participate on a competitve field. The winner doesnt become the REAL LEADER.
So whether you guys want to keep the Top Gun list or not is moot to me. Thanks for doing it but it wont matter where you put me on the list. Somewhere between Mediocre and Highly Intersted in Club Continuance would be about right I think!

[:D]

Morgan, be sure all knowing that our King in London is the REAL LEADER.[:D]

King Who? Oh Georgie! Sure, wasnt he insane? I think that about sums up the ability of the British effort in the war! "I will divide my force into three columns and attempt to meet somewhere down the Hudson Valley. We will crash through undergrowth the likes of which Ortho has never seen and cut down more trees than Paul Bunyon has ever sawn asunder in a lifetime. Yet somehow men I will lead you to victory."
Gentleman Johnny B never said that but he might as well have! Almost as wise as putting the American army on Long Island or Arnold trying to take Canada!
Of course since I lost my 4th of July Tourny game to a mad man (Glyn Hargreaves) where does that leave me? [;)] Crazy as a loon I suppose.
George - wasnt he a Beattle?
Would love to see how the war would have gone had Ringo been the King!
"We all live in a Yellow Submarine .... yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!"
Ah, those crazy British. Mad a march hen but so would you if you got taxed as much!