Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Yesterday received my copy of Austerlitz.

After the first euphoria about the game passed (I was VERY MUCH impressed with the maps! especially the Itallian)a disappointment came.

Leave alone the eye candy there are quite a few things that I can't understand. One of them is leaders quality.

Everything is comprehended in comparison. So let us compare. in form Army Rank Name Command/Leadership
Russian GL Bagration D/C (Future commander of the 2nd army. "Russians have no good generals but for Bagration" (c)Little Corsican)
Russian GL Miloradovich D/C (Future commander of combined Adv Guard, victorious at Tarutino and Krasnoi)
Russian GM Wittgenstein D/C (in 1812 Defeated Oudinot, Saint-Cyr, Victor most of the times being outnumbered, sometimes 2 to 1)
British MG Wellesley D/C (future defeater of napoleon and Prime minister)
British Lord Paget D/C (they say the best British cavalry commander)
British BG Hill E/C
Austrian General Mack E/C (the "hero" of Ulm and Naples)
Austrian Archduke Karl D/A (defeated at Hohenlinden, Eckmuhl and Wagram but victorious at Aspern-Essling)
Austrian GLt ([:0] take notice, they say there were General-Lieutenants in Austrian army!!!) Schwatzenberg D/B ("I made him a fieldmarshal but I didn't manage to make him a general" (c) Little Corsican)
Austrian FML Liechtenstein D/C (in 1793 he defeated 7000 French with 2000 Austrian cavalry having lost only 69 men and causing about 2000 killed and wounded to the enemy)
Prussian Genaral Hohenloe D/C (the "hero" of Jena)
Prussian Prince Luis Ferdinand D/A (humiliation at Saalfeld, killed there)
French Napoleon A/A
French GD Berthier D/C (brother of the Marechal, never fought a battle as independent commander)
French Col. Phantom C/B (numerous in Eagle campaign)

Am I the only one who finds this .... errr.... strange? Can anyone suggest any reasonable explanation why the quality ratings are assigned this way?

PS Thanks God command distances are the same for all the armies of coalition!!!

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

Thanks for the note on Schwarzenberg. I used Goetz' rendering of his rank and didn't change it before the game came out.

Its been changed for future updates.

The leader ratings:

They fall into two categories: one affects rally recover and the other affects disorder recover. The model I present worked in the development stage rather well so I am happy with what is presented.

The Allied leaders may have been better in some cases but even in Bagration's case his command only performed so-so.

The Allies were tied to a "column" mentality. And their staff system was plainly inferior to the French.

I am not going to get into a case by case basis defense of my ratings. I will just say that you spent one night reviewing the game whereas my team spent over a year and a half (and continues to do so) on the game.

Thanks for the note on Schwarzenberg. Again, I used Goetz' book and for some reason he didn't catch it either. But it hasn't stopped his work from rating right up there with the best! [;)]

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />... even in Bagration's case his command only performed so-so.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
You do not know that! Why am I so certain? It's simple. I just open Schongraben scenario and look at the names of Russian commanders subordinate to Bagration - they are Phantom, Phantom and Phantom. Brothers I suppose. If you do not know who was present there you can't know what orders were given by these people. And if you do not know what orders were given you can't find out were they executed well or not. You can't say did the action evolve as Bagration planned or he was forced to follow the current. The only things you "know" about the action appear to be "Bagrations command performed so-so" and "Murats advanced guard as always covered itself with glory." With data like that any set of model parameters will fit well.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I will just say that you spent one night reviewing the game whereas my team spent over a year and a half (and continues to do so) on the game.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The fact one spends a lot of time does not mean he does his work well. For example. Take the very much praised artwork by Joe Amoral. Take for example Russian Uhlans. Next answer the following questions:
-how many uhlans regiments were there in the army?
-what were their names?
-what regiment does uniform present belong to?
-when was this uniform introduced?
-what does a plume introduced in 1818 and collar introduced in 1811 do on a picture representing uniform in 1805?
-are the epaules correct?
-are the cords on the shako (chzapka) correct?
-what are these funny golden thing on his cheeks doing on the picture?
Take a look at how it was in reality
[image]http://www.museum.ru/1812/Army/Viskowatov/t11/pic/11-1533.jpg[/image]
The picture is free on the Internet. It originates from "Historical description of composition and uniforms of Russian Army" by Viskovatov. The most fundamental source one can find. There are hundreds of pictures for all of the unit types and time frames. Extensive explanations to every picture are provided. Did any of your teams members know such a book exists? Did anyone of them use it? Apparently not. Well, of course all of the materials are in Russian.

It is not a single case. I can say with all the responsibility - there is not a single correct picture for Russian army in this file. I don't mind anyone creating a nice picture. I do mind if these fake pics are sold as a solid historical work.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Thanks for the note on Schwarzenberg.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
He's not the only one. Keep looking for.[8D]

Have you ever heard of QAs? Quality Analizer - a position in big software companies. A nerd who looks at the product and says whether it's ok or not. In principle he can't be a member of the team, or his opinion would be biased. My personal opinion - do hire a QA before you release the next engine.

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

I dont jump in on these topics .

But sometimes it gets to me when so much has gone into making a game and there is always some one that has to jump in and slat it..

I would like to say Bill dos not do the game engine, Thats HPS and John.

With the Art. i can say you have never done any.. do you know how much gos into making those Pictures.. NO..
Joe has done some great stuff with the size of working space he gets when making them.. The pixel size you have to use in 2d or 3d with the space the picture has to be placed in is so small its very hard to be able to get all the detail .. and in 3d you can add all the detail but when it is made smaller to be added to the game most of that gos..

Please dont hit on Guys that are trying there best to do the Art in these games. It takes a long time and to get 2d or 3d to look as good as some of the other games out there you need a program that costs over $4,000.00 ..

I have said my part.[:(!]

<font color="red">Maréchal</font id="red">
<font color="red">BEECHAM</font id="red">
<font color="blue">La</font id="blue"> Commandeur, <font color="red">II Corps</font id="red">
ADN

Prince d` Istria et Comte d` Arles La Jeune Garde

"Toujours féroce,jamais étourdi"

I am well acquainted with the origins of the Uhlan regiments. Its something we discussed in development. I reacquainted myself with the Uhlans, having studied their development when I was younger (1976-77).

Three light horse units were converted to Uhlans in 1803, another (Constantine, formerly the Odessa Hussars, which joined the Guard in 1809) in 1805, two more in 1807, and six more in later 1812.

There is some dispute among the Russians as to when the Constantine Uhlans received their lances but most agree that they had them for the 1805 campaign.

The Lithuanian and Tartar regiments had 5 squadrons in 1805 with the Polish regiment (based on the Tovarich system) having 10. In 1809 they were all set to 10 squadrons with one depot squadron.

Uniform equipment, such as plumes or cords, varied considerably throughout the wars in all armies for all types of units.

The French for instance had some units that wore both bicorne and shako! Officers were constantly using whatever they wished for their uniform. And some units never transitioned to the new style until after the war was over. And some were disbanded and never changed over.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy the game and where you disagree feel free to get out the paintbrush or text editor and make up your own version of what you think it should be. You paid for it - edit it as much as you like.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club

I understand the responsibilities of programmer and scenario designer. All the questions posed relate to the responsibility of scenario designer. It is he who creates the oob file and assigns the ranks.

Indeed the Guys have put very much effort in those pictures. But why didn't they put 1/10 of it to find reliable sources for the pictures to be based on? Measure seven times before you cut once says Russian proverb. No matter how much effort you put in it, it is inaccurate if your sources are poor. How can a "historical" picture have nothing in common with real world? At a look at the picture for cossacks horse arty and after that take a look at what it really look like:
[image]http://adjudant.ru/table/images%5CRus_Army_1812_3%5C06.gif[/image]
Take a look at cossack foolish collpack a la Santa Claus and compare it to a fourage cap historically worn
[image]http://adjudant.ru/table/images%5CRus_Army_1812_3%5C05.gif[/image]
We have a cow sold as a horse. Or vice versa. I'm just calling the animal its real name.

As for the price... I do not need excellent 3d graphics. I just want it to be at least somewhat historically accurate. Like this one for NRC
[image]http://www.nwc.albom55.ru/RusArmy/pic/00-Cs.gif[/image]

HPS positions itself to create historically accurate and easy to play games that are constantly supported. But if in chase for a slightly better graphics historical accuracy is gone, what is left?


<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Three light horse units were converted to Uhlans in <s>1803</s> <font color="orange">1806</font id="orange">, another (Constantine, <s>formerly</s> <font color="orange">that started to be raised as</font id="orange"> the Odessa Hussars, which joined the Guard in 1809) <font color="orange">was raised</font id="orange"> in 1805, two more in <s>1807</s> <font color="orange">1808</font id="orange">, and six more in later 1812.

The Lithuanian and Tartar regiments had 5 squadrons in 1805 with the Polish regiment (based on the Tovarich system <font color="orange">all of them were created based on the system, on the contrast Konstantines uhlans were recruits</font id="orange">) having 10. In 1809 they were all set to 10 squadrons with one depot squadron.

Uniform equipment, such as plumes or cords, varied considerably throughout the wars in all armies for all types of units. The French for instance had some units that wore both bicorne and shako! Officers were constantly using whatever they wished for their uniform. And some units never transitioned to the new style until after the war was over. And some were disbanded and never changed over. <font color="orange">But it never happened vice versa. Units never wore uniforms that would be introduced 10 years later</font id="orange">

Anyway, I hope you enjoy the game
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I do enjoy. I could enjoy more.

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

Like I said before - get out the paintbrush and make it whatever you want.

Mark found the picture from a reputable source and I trust his uniform knowledge. We dont always agree on things, I do turn in suggestions for revising the artwork but in the end he has had the say in the projects.

For future projects we are going to use a different approach where we can preview the work he sends to Joe. This will save us in graphics dollars in the long run.

But Mark must have had a good reason for using this picture. I dont know all of the materials he uses but I trust his judgement.

And I have seen some FIVE variations to this uniform Anton. None of them looks the same.

We are talking about Cossack artillery! The uniform varied by cossack group. You should know that.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club

If the Russian and Austrian officers were better than the ratings how did Napoleon defeat them so badly? Command was the key factor in 1805 and the game reflects this very well. The allied command system was a shambles in 1805. The ratings reflect this. By comparison The French army's leadership in 1805 was superb.

Referring to the performance of generals after 1805 is also a bad comparison Anton. Napoleon taught them a lesson and they learnt from it and gradually improved. 1813 ultimately being when they were truly better.

The French infantry in my opinion should all rank higher from a historical perspective but in the end the game balance is vital so I don't whine about it.

The command in my view is both historically accurate and appropriate for game balance.





General de Brigade Knox
Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan



Escadron Mamelouks
Chasseurs a'Cheval
Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde.





CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Anton: are you saying that there were no uhlan regiments prior to 1806?

Further refinement on the uhlans:

There were two uhlan regiments prior to 1803: the Polish and the Lithuanian Tartars.

Bowden says that the Constantine Uhlans had been raised in 1803.

In 1803, the Lithuanian Tartars were divided into two regiments (Lithuanian and Tartar Uhlans) and were also considered Uhlans (carried the lance). 5 squadrons ea.

They all were supposed to have similar-sized squadrons but the Polish Uhlans had a harder time finding manpower and had smaller squadrons as a result.

But all the repuatable sources of the period have three uhlan regiments being raised prior to or in 1805. The Constantine, Lithuanian, Tartar and Polish.

So basically there were four regiments of Uhlans but only one is featured in the game for the most part.

Do you have any order of battle informtion for Bennigsen's army? In particular were these missing three uhlan regiments a part of his force as I can find no mention of them in the 1805 OBs I have.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kosyanenko</i>

The fact one spends a lot of time does not mean he does his work well. For example. Take the very much praised artwork by Joe Amoral. Take for example Russian Uhlans. Next answer the following questions:

-how many uhlans regiments were there in the army?
-what were their names?
-what regiment does uniform present belong to?
-when was this uniform introduced?
-what does a plume introduced in 1818 and collar introduced in 1811 do on a picture representing uniform in 1805?
-are the epaules correct?
-are the cords on the shako (chzapka) correct?
-what are these funny golden thing on his cheeks doing on the picture?
Take a look at how it was in reality
[image]http://www.museum.ru/1812/Army/Viskowatov/t11/pic/11-1533.jpg[/image]
The picture is free on the Internet. It originates from "Historical description of composition and uniforms of Russian Army" by Viskovatov. The most fundamental source one can find. There are hundreds of pictures for all of the unit types and time frames. Extensive explanations to every picture are provided. Did any of your teams members know such a book exists? Did anyone of them use it? Apparently not. Well, of course all of the materials are in Russian.

It is not a single case. I can say with all the responsibility - there is not a single correct picture for Russian army in this file. I don't mind anyone creating a nice picture. I do mind if these fake pics are sold as a solid historical work.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

First and foremost, my name is Mark Adams and I alone am the person responsible for the errors you are ranting about as far as graphics are concerned. It is my research you call into question. You not only hammer me on my research but based on the website you chose your image from, you also must believe that I should have the ability to read Cyrillic.

Joe Amoral is the artist and draws all images from the research that I provide.

I note that the image you posted in Black and White by Viskowatov comes from a website that is in Russian/Cyrillic. I see no version of this site in English ... so just how did you expect anyone that doesn't read Russian/Cyrillic to be able to navigate to these precious pictures you are talking about? I'm guessing that they must have descriptions of the colors as well in Cyrillic otherwise a black and white picture would do little good other than perhaps, to get the plume on the correct side.

I used as sources all the books dealing with the Napoleonic Armies of the Napoleonic Wars that Osprey Publishing puts out. I also have the book in the Blandford Color Series that has a few Russian uniforms in it. Also, I had the books by the Funcken's that cover the Napoleonic Wars. And last, I had the book by Hourtoulle that covers the Battle of Austerlitz. There are not many great references in English dealing with the Russian Army of this period.

Perhaps instead of basically calling all of us retarded, or lethargic, or derelict in our duties you might instead offer assistance for a possible update to correct these grievous errors. (Yes, I know you did not come right out and call us retarded, or lethargic, at least not in so many words).

I am always trying MY best as is the rest of every team to get it ALL right. However, since I am not God, I tend to make mistakes.

Oh and by the way, in your profile .... you spelled research wrong.

Wishing you a Great Day!
Mark


Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

General Adams
Commander
19th Division
VI Bavarian Corps
Armee du Rhin

Mark thanks for the great work I for one love the new game. Anton the cossack seems kean to pick holes in it [:0]

And as you are on the right side of the club we all know you are not god. Because he is an Englishman I understand [:D]

Kind regards
The Mamaluke

General de Brigade Knox
Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan



Escadron Mamelouks
Chasseurs a'Cheval
Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde.





CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Thanks Colin, glad to hear that someone likes it! As always it's fun to do.

Mark

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

General Adams
Commander
19th Division
VI Bavarian Corps
Armee du Rhin

A few suggestions for the future:

1. Progess not perfection, the artwork will never be 100% accurate as the historical sources cannot even agree at times.

2. Let's make our suggestions tactful and appreciative of all the hard work that has already gone into developing the art. I love to look at the 3D rendering but realize it will only ever be an approximation.

3. I suggest we include Anton and other interested Russian speaking experts on the design team of future titles especially any that involve the Russian Army. Let's put professionalism before personalties.

I love the game Bill and am happy with what you have produced and would am excited to watch it evolve.

Lieutenant General
Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by moondog830</i>
<br />Thanks Colin, glad to hear that someone likes it! As always it's fun to do.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

We all do appreciate the effort as it cannot be easy to paint those tiny portraits. You must use very tiny, tiny brushes! [:p][;)]

[:D]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, 1ère Brigade, 19ème Division, VI Corps, L'Armee du Rhin
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">