Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I don't call him saint. But you are judging his actions from modern point of view. And from anglo-saxon life paradigm. Both Alexandr and his brother Nicolas firmly believed that they are a Father and the people are the Children. In this paradigm there is no need for freedom. Because loving father is very much concerned about prosperty of his children. Sometimes even against their unwise will. at the time this paradigm was working well. Do not forget that in Europe only in France and England the peasants were personally free. De jure. De facto they were already enslaved with more advanced measures. I.e. if you don't work as you are said to you and your family will simply die of hunger.

Do not forget that by 1815 in Finland, Poland, and modern Baltic states (Kourland, Lifland and Lithuania) personal freedom was granted to the peasants. That's about 1/4 of the population. But that was made under very different legislation. In fact these provincies lived under different laws. Peasants of Russian could be "freed" in early 1800s. But they would be totally unprotected and totally unprepared for that. Do not forget that landowners were personally responsible for life of their peasants. If, due to low corps production, peasants died, landowner could suffer a severe punishment. It was a very strange looking system of social guaranties. But if the peasants were "freed" there would be no guaranty whatsoever. In 1861 there were a lot of problems that were not overcome until 1930s. The last Hunger happened in 1933 and is widely celebrated in the Western world. American Congress calls it henocide etc. As if they do not have enough henocides done on their own territory to blame first. And no one takes notice that between 1861 (when peasants were freed) and 1914 a hunger of such magnitude happened approximately every 10 years. And there were smaller hungerlies in between. About every third year. That's because social guaranties of "soulowners" were cancelled. If th peasants were freed in 1803 there would be no Borodino. By 1812 all the Russia would have died out of hunger.

Code of laws were in complete chaos at the time. And with that state illiterate peasantry could be literally robbed by corrupt buerocracy. Work on a complete code of laws was started about 1824 and was finished only by 1848. To release peasants earlier meant simply to kill 'em.

There were quite a few other unregulated reasons why simply saying "you are free" was a mere murder. You don't let your belowed dog go into the wild and live free, because it will most probably die. Why should a loving father let his beloved children die of hunger in millions?!

I do not call him saint. I only ask you to understand the whole difficulty of phenomenon. As soon as you understand that you won't ask why Konstantine abdicated and preferred life with his belowed wife. And won't be too cruel judging Alexander and Nicolas.

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Interesting response Anton. Perhaps an illustration of the differences in the belief systems of Russia and the west.

For example one could argue people were better off enslaved in many of histories dictatorial systems. Perhaps the African American's in the south of the USA would have been better kept in slavery as their landowners cared for their slaves as they were an asset and with their poor educations they would have just ended them up in poverty if freed.

A different example from the Russian surfs for sure but I don't buy this argument when a small number of people are sitting on the wealth. The people of Russia eventually did not either.

However it's an intelligent response so I shall go easy on the Tsar Alexander as he was renowned man of gentle nature.

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

"Greatest general in history ..." Oh talking about Lt. Gen. George S. Patton again eh?

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

St Alexander, patron saint of the bizarre and patricidal?

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Podporuchik HarryInkski,
Lithuanian Uhlans
14th Brigade, IV Cav Corps,
2nd Army of the West

Yes, sorry I cannot buy that business about watching out for his people. None of the royalty ever really cared much about their peasants. Only the rare monarch down through history has done this. And that excuse didn't hold water when the Marxists came to town. It had been used once too often. Meanwhile, workers were experiencing terrible conditions in factories and peasants were still starving to death under a series of bad crops, bad government administration, etc.

I will take my freedom any day and starve to death rather than be enslaved to some landowner and live like a pauper anyway. In fact I live very simply right now and would much rather have it than to be enslaved to some company who believes that their high and might degreed individuals can treat me like trash. Which is basically what happened to me during my career in industry. I could care less about your PhD, show me character, compassion and and common sense. I am glad I had good supervisors as otherwise I would have left that company sooner than I did.

It is partly the fault of the Russian or Ukranian people that their free system is not working but the government still sticks their nose into their people's business all too often. Little Father can take a flying leap for all I care. Add in the Russian Mafia and other black marketeers too. No wonder the Russian people take a stoic viewpoint on life. After having read Ayn Rand's "We The Living" as a kid I came to understand that living in the USSR was a life of moment by moment with little hope of a great life.

(see Fall of Eagles shown on BBC back in the 70s and available on DVD - good presentation of how the monarchies of Europe were living on yesteryear - Patrick Stewart does a great job as Lenin)

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Colin,

Don't take it as a propaganda of slavery. Of course being free is better than not being free. The question is that current state of society (including legislation, education, tradition, corruption etc.) posed effectual equality sign between "liberation" and "mass murder". That was well understood and the following 50 years were continuous and gradual improvements of society. As soon as the equality sign was taken away the corresponding manifesto was signed. Could id be signed earlier? Maybe. Not sure. Just do not forget that there were quite a few wars during the period that took much of attention.

The main thing is that taking into account these facts actions of both Alexander and Nicolas are to some extent understandable. Opposed to those opinions calling them bloody dictators with unpredictable and uncomprendable behaviour.

Bill,

It sounds like you understand the point. You say the correct words. But since it's about slavery you are bound to take the opposite side. Like those redneck democrates who are bound to vote for McCain since Obama is a "bloody niggar".

No one argues that being wealty and healthy is much better that being poor and ill. But consider the other dilemma. Life on the verge of povetry. One step from it. And two steps from hungry death for you and your family. Would you select personal freedom and no social guaranties whatsoever or limited freedom and some, looking strange now but natural there and then, social guaranties? Not a trivial question. And again, I do not say that serfdom is good. I just explain why those particular Tzars thought that Their "parental" rule is better than such a "freedom".

No question it's better to be free. But believe me, those men were not much concerned about personal freedom. They may seem stupid, but they did understand the life well. Are they personally free or not does not matter as long as they do not possess the land. Anyways they are bound to work this land in accordance with landowners will. The only difference being the method f enforcement. In between 1861 and 1917 they were personally free, but had only limited possesion of the land. It is very informative fact that one of two main slogans of Revolution in 1917 was "Land to the peasantry". Which implied they will be effectively free then.

And speaking of awful life conditions of peasantry and workers do not forget that those low standards came from the West. At the same time the same classes lived at the same low level or even worse in the Citadel of Democracy.

Enjoy this conversation! Hope you enjoy too.

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Serfdom, slavery and individual freedom. From the modern viewpoint gets thorny indeed. A biblical view shows that where ever you find yourself you serve Christ. So the serf, slave or freeman can enjoy equal freedom from the eternal perspective.

The Christian lord of the manor, slave owner, or corporate CEO are charged with loving those in their care. That means taking care of them treating them as equals in Christ, not abusing them, not treating them as property, etc. Many serf owners took this commit to heart throughout all of Europe where and when the institution existed. Indeed on a day-to-day basis many souls who were "owned" were cared for and better off than those who "owed no man" anything. Many CEOs of yesteryear and today hold thier employees in more wretched condition than some who were legally restricted from living or going where they chose. Many freemen aren't, they've enslaved themselves to massive debt, excessive lifestyles, so they must bow to ruthless, soul-less corporations.

Freedom comes from Christ, not the law. Even serfs, slaves, landowners and business tycoons can be free, and being free find themselves content in their 'temporary' conditions.

I think many from days gone by understood and lived these thoughts more than we do today, as we're hung up on being "free and independant", and not realising we were made to be interdependent.

Just some thoughts. People and the institutions they make are similar throughout time and all around the world. Without their Creator, they mess things up for all.

al

Wow - no, Colin, I would not vote for McCain to avoid voting for Obama just because he was black. I would have voted for Colin Powell had he run on the Dem ticket. He wont and oh well. But I am not racist. Please do not play that "card" on me. Not sure where your reasoning on that came from either. I voted for McCain hoping that he would win rather than Obama, whose policies I do not endorse.

Al - yes, individual soul liberty is very important here. No matter what state I am in (whether its Oklahoma, Idaho, rich, poor) I am to be content too.

However, we are speaking of oppression of the body as well as the soul and if given the choice of living in a place where I am well taken care of by a tyrant or going without (food, etc) under personal physical liberties I would take the latter any day.

This can also be drawn back to the days of the Colonies in the US too. We were under our "Father" King George III but decided to break away from his authority. And it was a rebellion there is no doubt about it just the same as when England suffered its breaking with King Charles over issue of authority. But we had indentured servants in those days, folks that paid for their journey to America with hard labor for years. A bit different than a slave. But that form of labor was done away with by law.

Soul liberty has to do with freedom from the power of the law (biblical law) and freedom in Christ. And a person can be free in his heart from the effects of the world as well. Two different kinds of freedom being discussed here.

Telling the serfs to "just go along with the Tsar" to me is like telling Uncle Tom to enjoy his cabin. Did the Negro really gain freedom after he was declared free. No, there were still mindsets, laws in place or would be added later, still in place today for that matter. And many chose to just continue working where they had grown up. But they had the choice to stay or leave. That was what was missing before. Physical freedoms. CHOICE.

Now to Eastern Europe - they had choice after the wall came down measured with economic and political issues. Were they totally free? Probably not but they enjoyed a greater degree of personal CHOICE than ever before.

I love our country because no matter how many times you fall down you can still strive to get back on your feet. Only health can really hold you back and even in those cases you can still overcome that. In other countries you fall and you never can rise back up due to totalitarian systems in place. Or extreme narrow economic windows of opportunity. In Europe it is harder to regain your riches than in the US.

I do not applaud the drug dealer or person who turns to crime to earn money - but I understand very well why Europe and Russia have a huge blackmarket trade. In one way it is a person's viewpoint on how to attain economic freedom. And that is the theme of a totally different discussion altogether.

Lets keep this nice but frankly I would think that if it goes too much more into the political arena it needs to be moved to the Off Topic forum...

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

'Wow - no, Colin, I would not vote for McCain to avoid voting for Obama just because he was black'

Bill that was Anton not me who said that

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

Indeed it was me. Had no idea for whom did you vote. Just tried to say that you hear word "freedom" and go with it or protecting it. Like that redneck in TV who was asked about his voting preference and replied in the described way. Being shown on central TV it was so amusing! Jokes using this kind of logic are rather popular in here

The point was that being "freed" in that circumstances very much decreased, in game theory terms, a set of possible choices.

And I suggest to leave it in this forum. Because one can't invent a better commercial to join our army

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Freedom is a nice word but who is free only the dead can say! Who the son set free is free indeed.

Lets see Anton, our country was bought with the blood of our forefathers. Yes, I am going to protect it. Not like you Russians who just couldn't care less and have wild vokda parties and couldn't care less about life (live today because revolution or death could come tomorrow) because you have been trampled for centuries by one dictator after another. Laugh all you want at our rednecks. Meanwhile, I look at your gulags and just know why they are there. Its called mutual distrust.

I will take our rednecks any day over your KGB .... lets have a few Russian jokes why don't we ... (what a sad mentality ...)

Sorry Colin - didn't read the thread right. My bad ...

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Pray remind the assembled Tavernites what happened to Alexander's father, again?

Any one who believes that the Emperor was for FJE is naive. After he reinstate Slavery in 1802 and started his rise to be the New Roman EMPIRE FJE DIE AND THE FRENCH revolution also.

Alors, mes mesieurs, all this name calling! It's is indeed a curse of our chosen epoch that blood rests on the hands of all. The Tsar did lead a slave empire. But, for all the French talk of freedom, one need only read accounts of Napoleon's campaign in Italy, his very first, to be aware of the rapine the french armies visited upon the civiliants, the mass executions directed by Napoleon and his generals, and the reluctance of the french to grant italians freedom and independence. Napoleon, for whom the frozen dead at Eylau would be "just so much small-change" of war (was that any different from his opponents?). After the first defence of the French republic, certainly by the time of the Directory, war was no longer in the service of freedom but of desperate governments financing themselves or aristocracies defending their privileges against incidious notions of freedom. I don't know what epoch we could find where the putresence of war in the service of true unspoiled ideals. A 'good war' is an oxymoron rendered intelligible only but the entertainment it provides us, hein?

Still, it may be one of life's truism that the french do smell of garlic and need to be swatted back beyond the Rhine!

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Podporuchik HarryInkski,
Lithuanian Uhlans
14th Brigade, IV Cav Corps,
2nd Army of the West